NBC "Meet the Press" - Transcript: Interview with Andy Beshear & Larry Hogan
Interview
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CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now are two governors who are living our political divide. Andy Beshear's the Democratic governor of a very red Kentucky where the Republican legislature has a veto-proof majority. And Larry Hogan is the Republican governor of a very blue Maryland where the Democratic legislature has a veto-proof majority. And in the spirit of bipartisanship, the two governors agreed to appear together today. So I thank you both. And welcome to both of you.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Morning.
CHUCK TODD:
Yes. Governor Beshear, let me start with you. Look, I'm just going to put up the case curve. You know this curve very well with Covid right now. It's astonishing how fast Delta has surged in the state of Kentucky. You're trying to deal with it, but you've been limited in your ability to do certain things by your Republican legislature. What can you get done now to try to slow this surge in Kentucky?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, our situation is dire. We're setting case records. We have a record number of Kentuckians in the hospital battling Covid, in the ICU battling for their lives. We have a record number of families that are praying for their loved one who is on a ventilator and needing that assistance to -- to breathe. A recent Supreme Court case and our legislature limit my ability to do some things like masking. If I had the ability to do it right now, we would have a masking order when you are in public and indoors. We know that's a proven way to slow the spread of the virus and ultimately help our healthcare capacity. But that doesn't mean there aren't things we can do. So I sent the National Guard to our hardest hit hospitals. They do the logistics and free up more clinicians. We've taken over the testing for those hospitals so those nurses, again, can be tending to patients. We've brought in FEMA who have sent some strike teams. And now we've deployed nursing students all over Kentucky, again, to try to provide more staffable beds. It is a challenge. We are hit very, very hard. But we are going to continue to fight. When you're at war, you don't get to cry about what you can or can't do. You've got to do your very best every day because this is a battle of life versus death.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, look, you lead a state that has one of the highest vaccination rates in the country. But let's be frank. If two thirds of your electorate were Republican, do you think you'd be this successful?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, look, I think we're very proud of the fact that we're one of the most vaccinated states in the country, and as a result, our metrics are almost completely opposite of what Governor Beshear is dealing with in Kentucky. We -- you know, we have vaccinated 81 percent of all the people that are eligible, everybody 12 and over. 95 percent of our seniors. And, you know, as a result, our hospitalizations are down 70-some percent from their peak. Deaths are down. But we're still dealing with the unvaccinated folks, which account for most of our hospitalizations and deaths. And some of it has to do with the fact that there's been tremendous disinformation campaigns, and people are believing things that are simply not true. But it's not just in the red areas where we're having difficulties. We're one of the states with the highest percentage of minority populations. And in some of our urban areas, we have similar challenges. But we're doing really well. And I'm pleased with the results of where we are. It's convincing those last, you know, 19 percent of our people that they've got to take action. That's where we're focused on.
CHUCK TODD:
Let's talk about this issue of misinformation. We've got this issue of the dewormer situation, and I think at -- Kentucky Poison Control has had extra calls about this. Governor Beshear, are there just certain groups of people that aren't going to listen to you, and you have to acknowledge that and find other -- other spokespeople to try to convince the unvaccinated to listen to public science -- public health?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
When it comes to misinformation, I really don't think this is a red or a blue issue. It is a fact versus fiction, or a sometimes sane versus insane issue. You know, my first job in life was mucking stalls at a horse farm. Taking a horse dewormer is crazy, under any circumstance. We are well past, I think, all across America, the populations that are going to listen to a government official and take the vaccine because of it. We're probably past even the point where a local official, a pastor or others. Where I think we're at is where people are going to have to break that Thanksgiving dinner rule. They're going to have to call or go see that person they love and care about that is unvaccinated, and they're going to have to put their relationship with that person on the line because they've never been at greater risk. And I think it's that type of caring, and the person who is willing to do that and to make that sacrifice that will finally get through to those that are not vaccinated. That's what we're seeing here in Kentucky. And we need all Americans to do it. Yes, you might lose a friend because of that conversation.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
But that friend might lose their life if they don't get vaccinated.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, give some advice to the current Covid task force in the Biden administration. Let's talk the issue of a third shot or a booster shot. You're a cancer survivor. You've gotten the booster shot. You've got the former president now out there saying he's not going to take it. And earlier, he seemed to chalk up the idea to some sort of profiteering by Pfizer. I think it's clear the Biden administration can't speak to those folks that need to be spoken to. Who should? And what would be your advice to the Covid task force team on how to talk to the Trump folks?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, I don't think it's just about the Trump folks. I mean, you know, I was fairly critical of President Trump when I thought that they were bad on messaging, when I thought they were doing things wrong and not providing the assistance that -- that we needed in the states. And I've been the same thing with the Biden administration. I mean, we're getting some mixed messagings out of the administration, out of the CDC, the FDA and the White House. And, you know, we need clear guidance on these booster shots because it undermines, you know, the credibility of it. And so they came out with -- I guess they slipped and pre-leaked an announcement about booster shots with all three vaccines and then had to backtrack it and say you can only use Pfizer. What about the people that took J&J? What about the people that took Moderna? They haven't messaged properly about how to take care of these breakthrough infections. Like, look, it does prevent hospitalizations and death, or greatly reduce it. But it's not stopping, you know, people from getting breakthrough infections. So I think the messaging was not clear with either administration. And I think that's one of the ways we've been successful in our state is a clear, direct messaging that people can believe in and listen to. And that's been a problem all over the map.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Beshear, I'm curious of your thoughts on the Biden Covid task force, and I know you talked about having just a metric that you just -- you know, if you hit the number, mask mandate triggers. If you're below the certain number on infection, no. Why has it been hard to just create a statistical line here? It's like, we know when a tropical storm becomes a hurricane because you measure the -- measure the wind speed. Why has that been difficult with Covid?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, it has been difficult, and it shouldn't be because it's just basic science. And our healthcare providers have been wearing masks for decades. Why? To prevent infection in different areas. I think this is a test of our humanity. I believe that that's what this pandemic is. And remember, a pandemic isn't an issue. It's a virus that's trying to kill as many of us as possible. And so I think it comes down to, are you willing to be selfless and wear that mask, loving your neighbor and protecting them? Or is it more a question of selfish? "I have the right to do whatever I want, even if it causes harm to others." You know, you can't walk into a crowded movie theater and yell, "Fire." Your freedom of speech doesn't extend that far. So let's remember that liberty is the right to live our lives, not to cause someone else's death. That should be pretty easy for people of faith, for people of values. And I hope that we can start living those -- that faith and those values to protect one another once again.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me lift up and talk about the larger challenge of polarization. And the abortion debate, frankly, I think is only going to exasperate our divide here. Both of you, I would -- I could argue, and you may disagree with me, but I'm going to play political analyst here. Both of you have benefited when the other party went too far, right? I could argue that's why you're both governor today. Certainly why you may have a second term, Governor Hogan, and why, Governor Beshear, you're there. Is that the only way to cut through polarization, Governor Hogan? Is when the other party goes too far and then the voters create a check? Is that about it? Because it doesn't seem as if the middle ground gets represented unless one party goes too far.
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, it's an interesting -- it's an interesting idea. I think that may be possible, certainly in our state. You know, they had raised taxes 43 times in a row, even though we're the most Democratic state in America. Even the Democrats got frustrated with that. And so -- but I think right now in America, there are certainly people on both ends of the extremes, on the left and the right, who get all of the attention. The ones that are making the most noise. And that's what we hear about when we're watching television. But about 70 percent of the people actually just are somewhere in the middle. They're moderate or right of center, left of center. They really want their elected officials to try to figure out a way to do something about this toxic politics. And they want us to work together to come up with real bipartisan common sense solutions. Turns out that's the most popular thing in America with most voters.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Beshear, both you and Governor Hogan have also -- share another thing in common. When you've had some abortion bills come from your legislature, you chose not to veto them, but you chose not to sign them and they just became law. One had to do with some Medicaid funding with Planned Parenthood, I believe, on the Maryland side of things. You, with the current law that's there. How much do you expect abortion to divide your state going forward, and what is your -- do you have a plan on what to do in a post-Roe world?
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Well, I think it remains to be seen exactly what impact this Texas decision will have, especially with another case coming before the Supreme Court here pretty soon. But as the state's former top prosecutor, I have seen the worst of the worst situations. Young girls raped, impregnated, sometimes by members of their own families. I hope whatever comes down the line provides those victims that have been harmed in ways most of us could never imagine the options that they deserve.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Hogan, do you believe the abortion issue, if it's going to be state by state, you seem to basically say, you know your electorate is perhaps pro-choice. You may be pro-life. And you've sort of taken a hands off approach. Do you believe it should be the sort of public sentiment that should dictate where we go on abortion laws?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, you know, I happen to be personally opposed to abortion. And I believe the states do have rights to pass some reasonable restrictions. But certainly in this case, this bill in Texas seems to be a little bit extreme with this problem of bounties for people that turn in somebody that drove someone to an abortion clinic. So, look, I think the courts, the Supreme Court will take this up. They haven't made the final determination on it. Legislatures have rights to pass bills. Governors have a right to sign them into law or not. And the court gets to make the ultimate decision.
CHUCK TODD:
No, I understand. But do you think this should be something, if it's by the states, should it reflect the will of the people or the will of the elected officials?
GOV. LARRY HOGAN:
Well, you know, the way our system works is we elect officials and they make decisions for us. The people get to decide whether they want to keep them in office or not. In our state, the voters actually made this determination long before I became governor. My legislature's 70 percent -- more than 70 percent Democratic. And I chose not to try to overturn the will of the legislature or the voters.
CHUCK TODD:
Governor Andy Beshear, Democrat from Kentucky. Larry Hogan, Republican from Maryland. Again, appreciate you both coming on. Believe it or not, this used to be a very common practice here on Meet The Press. It's hopefully something we can keep going. Thank you both.
GOV. ANDY BESHEAR:
Thank you.
GOV.LARRY HOGAN:
Thank you.
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